Xykeb Zraliv– 6. And the Bridgekeeper rose up and threw down his father and threw down his brother, and truly did they know the name of the King. And into the house of his father went the Body and the Mind of the Bridgekeeper. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
Ok, is there a particular reason bosses are added to the character categories? I mean, I can understand if the boss talks or something...but seriously, can Armogohma or Molgera be considered characters? They really do nothing but attack Link. This appears to be the general rule, so I don't want to just change it without others' opinions...but why?
Yeah, also been thinking the same...should only apply to bosses with dialogue or any sort of backstory.
Diachronos– So... To become the Hero of Time, we need to go to the Temple of Time, to play the Song of Time, on the Ocarina of Time, in front of the Door of Time, so we can pull the Sword of Time, out of the Pedestal of Time... TALK– TWILIGHT PRINCESS WALKTHROUGH - MY ZELDA GAME
I think the Character label should be reserved for final bosses and the occasional boss that isn't just "there", like Zant and Agahnim.
what about bosses like blind who have a back story and talk but dont play any real role in the overall stry? OniDark Link 00:03, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
Hmm.... I don't like the selectiveness of the dialog thing, but I agree.
Xykeb Zraliv– 1. Yesterday I saw the Body of the Bridgekeeper engulfed in flame, and I saw the Bridge created by one-third. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
Blind I would definitely consider a character. Some bosses like Genie or Shadow Hag that speak one line but have no backstory or bosses like Volvagia that have a backstory but no dialog we'd have to discuss. However, bosses that do nothing but attack Link should not be considered characters.
Diachronos– "If Opposite Day truly did exist, then wouldn't that day be the opposite of itself, and be not Opposite Day anyway?" - Gaary, Unforgotten Realms TALK– TWILIGHT PRINCESS WALKTHROUGH - MY ZELDA GAME
I think we should only count bosses who talk AND have a background as characters.
EveryDayJoe45– "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"--Hassan-i Sabbah TALK
What about Bongo Bongo who has a backstory and is seen outside of the shadow temple, but never talks?
Diachronos– "If Opposite Day truly did exist, then wouldn't that day be the opposite of itself, and be not Opposite Day anyway?" - Gaary, Unforgotten Realms TALK– TWILIGHT PRINCESS WALKTHROUGH - MY ZELDA GAME
I think he would because of what we know about him and the theories about him. But I might be a little biased; he's one of my favorite bosses in the series. Kinda ironic because I hate the Shadow Temple...
so a little list of bosses we'll have as characters. Add to it if you can think of anyone OniDark Link 12:48, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
Helmaroc King appears in the story quite a lot and does have an aposing effect but no dialouge (besides screeching)
Phantom Ganon wind waker and four swords adventures features him mulitple times making but has no dialouge on any encounters (except voice acted laughing)
Fyrus is also a character but has a page for its character
Argorok seen several times through out dungeon but has no dialouge or back story
Xykeb Zraliv– 11. “But rejoice, Arrogant Man, for I have provided another opportunity to fight your fate. Simply defeat your successor and return to my side.” TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
I'm neutral on Bongo Bongo, Volvagia, and Helmaroc King, but Phantom Ganon I simply wouldn't consider a character. No backstory other than that he's a phantom made in Ganondorf's image and no dialog. Also, Vire (Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons) and Master Stalfos, I think at least.
I dont think you can disagree with those two OniDark Link 19:27, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
EveryDayJoe45– "I figured that if I said it enough, I would convince the world that I really was the greatest."--Muhammad Ali TALK
To be honest this is going to get too opinionated for its own good. They should probably all be on or all be off. Because What about Eox, he has a backstory. Theres so many maybes I don't know how we could possibly regulate this.
Xykeb Zraliv– 5. Then for ten score years this was so, the King allowed the races of Man and Demon to exist as they saw fit, and on the eight-and-twentieth day of every seventh month the King’s heart was hardened by what he saw in the land of Technology, and the subjects of the land of Magick would be quick to gladden him with offerings. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
We can't do all on or all off. That'll be even more of a mess. Then some bosses that definitely are characters won't be considered characters or some bosses that definitely aren't characters will be. It's just a lose-lose situation. If we manage to reach a concensus on at least some of these then we can make it better, even if it's not completely correct.
it could work if we just go through each boss that could be and see what the majority thinks OniDark Link 20:23, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
Diachronos– "If Opposite Day truly did exist, then wouldn't that day be the opposite of itself, and be not Opposite Day anyway?" - Gaary, Unforgotten Realms TALK– TWILIGHT PRINCESS WALKTHROUGH - MY ZELDA GAME
Or at least the ones we're unsure about. No sense in having everybody vote on it when we already know that Ganondorf's a character and Diababa isn't.
Oni Dark Link– "What a piece of work is a man, how noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god! The beauty of the world, the paragon of animals and yet, to me, what is this quintessence of dust? Man delights not me, nor woman neither, though by your smiling you seem to say so. - Hamlet" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
Well to start can everyone agree that all the bosses up there on the list are also characters?
Xykeb Zraliv– 4. “Only through Purification of the Aspects with Blessed Agony will a tarnished being again know my name. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
Xykeb Zraliv– 3. “You are the Child, and to you I grant power, for I see in you the potential that will grant my father, the King, his greatest wish. You shall be not of the land of Technology, nor of the realm of Magick, but of both, and thus you shall form the Bridge. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
I'd consider Gohdan (a moderate amount of dialogue, not just "I'm going to kill you!", but some stuff with actual meaning and importance), Master Stalfos (appears quite a lot, talks quite a lot, plays an antagonistic role in a way other than "you see a big monster and attack it"), and Blind (has a ton of backstory, plays a very antagonistic role in a way other than "you see a big monster and attack it", actually tries to trick you instead of just attacking you) characters. I'm neutral on Volvagia (more backstory than most others; you actually hear quite a lot of his history and background, he's clearly sentient to an extent, but he has no dialogue whatsoever), Queen Gohma (some backstory, presumably sentient to an extent, but has no dialogue whatsoever), Bongo Bongo (a lot of backstory, clearly sentient, but has no dialogue whatsoever), and Argorok (terrorizes you throughout the dungeon, clearly sentient to an extent, but has no dialogue whatsoever). Fyrus and Blizzeta...eh, still not sure about that. If we consider them bosses seperate from the characters Darbus and Yeta, certainly not.
Xykeb the "all or not at all" most likely doesn't make sense on purpose. I just don't like were this is going. To many "maybes". Because once you remove all the ones that don't have backstory, dialogue, etc. what about the one's like Bongo Bongo? There is to many questions, I don't like how this looks in othere words.
Xykeb Zraliv– 6. And the Guide put fire to the Bridgekeeper, and the Body of the Bridgekeeper was destroyed utterly, and the Mind of the Bridgekeeper was destroyed by one-half, and across the great dark ocean one-third of the Bridge appeared. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
Sigh....................................
Bongo Bongo has backstory, so he is debatable. If we ever pick this conversation up again, we will likely make a decision about bosses like that. No point in letting it make even less sense just because we're not sure on certain ones.
Oni Dark Link– "I know that to love another, I must watch the world move past him. But such short years make an eternity worth living - Tiki" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
ok how about this. We take the list above and put it forward. If any people disagree with any of them up there then we take the unagreed ones down and discuss them. by majority we decide wether or not to add them. it really isnt that hard.
Xykeb Zraliv– 12. The New Prince faced the Arrogant Man. And the New Prince threw down the Arrogant Man. TALK– it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts it hurts
I agree with that.
Just one thing though. Ccbermanzzpedia suggested that if they have any dialogue, backstory, or they appear a lot, they're really pretty similar to minor characters, so he suggested that all of those bosses be considered characters.
OMG no. Every boss in every game? See I akin them to minor characters because even if one only has a little bit of backstory or a little bit of dialouge don't we still consider them characters? That would be really really really boring and a waste of time.
Oni Dark Link– "Empty spaces - what are we living for? Abandoned places - I guess we know the score. On and on! Does anybody know what we are looking for? Another hero - another mindless crime. Behind the curtain, in the pantomime. Hold the line! Does anybody want to take it anymore? The Show must go on! The Show must go on! Inside my heart is breaking, My make-up may be flaking, But my smile, still, stays on!" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
of course were not going to have to look at every single boss. nobody is going to claim that digdogger or aquamantis are characters. No we do what we have done and make a list of possible candiates for a character category and then discuss and either add or remove the tag. And if anyone feels there is a boss that is a character that isnt on the list then they can simply add them and we will discuss further
Ccbermanzzpedia– We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it--Preamble of the Declartion of Independence TALK– 20:00, November 3, 2009 (UTC) TimelineMy edits?x?
Still a bad idea. Anything without dialouge, backstory, etc. really isn't a character, just an enemy, albeit with bosses more powerful.
thats why nobody is going to suggest any character without dialouge, backstory or an imposing effect on the story
About Fyrus and Blizzeta, I´m against making ´Character´ pages exclusively for them, since I believe that their part in the story is sufficiently discussed in Darbus´ and Yeta´s character pages, respectively. These two should have just their ´Boss´ pages and a mere descussion of their characters in a ´History´ section.--The Gerudo Guy (talk) 21:55, December 27, 2009 (UTC)The Gerudo Guy
EveryDayJoe45– "It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."--Abraham Lincoln TALK
No offense, but you obviously have no clue what we were discussing here.
Im with joe,i have no clue what were even talking abou any more!But also do you think shadow link she be a character or something?Malon_Girl5
Fyrus isn't really a character, its the cheif Goron's corrupted form. Blizzeta is the same, but substitute yeti instead of chief goron. and with Argorok, isn't it possible for a boss to wreak havoc in the region of its dungeon?
Oni Dark Link– "This is foolishness... A future...for you? Very well, then... Allow me to show you... Your future... Yes... Allow me to show you... Just what hope you have... - Ganondorf" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
I quickly checked to see wether or not this was actuly done by looking at the category Majora's Mask character and seen that none of the bosses (some mini bosses do) had the tag except Odolwa. Why does is he tagged as a character? Joe mentions him as one of the candidates due to a backstory but what back story does he have? Unless you believe he is the deity or whatever the theory is on the Deku Royal Family page none that I can think of. Its possible he was the one who kiddnapped the Deku Princess but no one names him as the one as far as I remember. Anyone object to him loosing the tag of character?
EveryDayJoe45– "Government is not the solution to the problem. Government IS the problem."--Ronald Reagan TALK
They talk about him kidnapping the princess. And the "deity" is clearly referring to one of the Four Giants.
Oni Dark Link– "To my dearest Albert, Happy Birthday. By the time you read this, chances are that I'll no longer be with you. So instead of giving you a present I'd like you to hear me out. Albert this is important. I don't want you to ever hate anyone. Something occurred to me. Feelings of love and feelings of hate both start out as caring about someone. It's sad, but I think that sometimes when those feelings aren't returned, those feelings of love change into hate. If something like that ever happen, I want you to think back to our childhood. Back to a time when we could only love openly and honestly no matter how often we got hurt. I want you to go on living Albert. Love people openly without being scared of getting hurt. I truly was lucky to have known you. - Franz d'Epinay. Forever in your heart." TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
They say repeatedly that the Monkey Kidnapped the Princess and when you talk to the monkey himself he says she was kidnapped by a monster which could be any of the enemies in the temple
Well, yeah, he is technically one of the four giants, but the rule/exception I said before about Darbus and Fyrus applies to the other Terminian bosses. I think you should go ahead and remove character tag. But like I also said before; bosses can wreak havoc on their area of dominance and still not be a character, even if they kidnap someone. And in TP, some Bokoblins kidnap a monkey and (I think) Colin, that doesn't make them mini-bosses even. OK, maybe it does, but only for that one occasion and not again ever.
Oni Dark Link– "The gall of such conceit. Tiny forms of life, there are which 'scape the naked eye. They do not demand “Wherefore?” of the cosmos. Go die if life without reason is so loathsome to you. - A World Without Sadness" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
I think we should wait a bit to see what others have to say
But before we wait, I have one more thing to say. I thought bosses (guardian bosses) were not really allowed to leave the temple/dungeon area. Argorok is still in the City in the Sky when you see him all of the times. It would weaken the seal and/or make them vulnerable. And if you use Bongo-Bongo as an example, I say it was not him that destroyed the village, but him channeling his evil influence into a quasi-corporeal state. Simple version of that= he used his massive power and made a "shadow clone" (if you watch Naruto then you get the concept, if not it is a duplicate of the being that is physically present and can interact with objects/things but disappears shortly) temporarily because he was bound to the temple. If he/it left, Impa would have broken free with the help of the other sages and/or Zelda/Sheik.
EveryDayJoe45– "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"--Hassan-i Sabbah TALK
Oni your just wrong please stop talking. It really pisses me off how you need to argue for the sake of arguing when you make no sense half of the time. I am getting so sick of it and you have no idea. Luckily, today I am in one of my better moods so I can at least respond in a calm manner: "But the temple had become a monster's lair, and the princess was captured by the monster...". You don't think that refers to the boss of the dungeon? Not to mention other references to "monster" throughout. I notice you opted to not include the entire quote, or maybe you just missed it in your attempt to find a problem with everything ever. And also the fact that the Nintendo Power guide clarifies this even further solidifies it is referring to Odolwa, not some random monster.
Oni Dark Link– "People. Humans. Are beings that seek happiness. The only thing that the Brittanian boy Lelouch wanted was a small bit of happiness. Nothing special. At least- as far as the root for his actions was concerned- a very human and modest wish. Who could deny him that wish? That promise? Who has that right? But, if people didn't have death and hardships, they wouldn't bee able to establish a base in this world and be punished for it. So, the thoughts of an individual, and even working with the view of the world, they only have a short existence. Sin and punishment. Fate and judgement. What stood in Lelouch's way was his own past. The hatred that exists because people are people. But even so, people should be thankful. That people are beings that seek happiness. The best kind of wish is born from despair. - C. C. (not the user on this wiki btw)" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
I never argue for the sake of arguing and I didnt check a text dump I took from memory what the monkey says but with the full quote referencing a monsters lair and nintendo power's (respected but still non canoical) comment (what ever it might be I dont read Nintendo Power) I see your point. It should however be expanded on on tthe Odolwa article. And Pgans, as far as I seen it Argorox wasn't guarding the Shard he just happend to come into contact with it like Yeta I could be wrong though since its been a almost a year since I played Twilight Princess. And your Bonogo Bongo theory makes no sense, the game makes it very clear that he escaped from the well where he was imprisoned
EveryDayJoe45– "Every man dies; Not every man really lives"--William Wallace (Braveheart) TALK
That just makes matters worse. Do not ever take "what you remember" and apply it to "what is fact". I cannot believe you just admitted that that is what you used as your source for an argument. And Nintendo Power is Nintendo and is arguably cannonical. Nintendo Power does not make guide books anymore, so the recent Prima guides may not be cannonical, but seeing as the older guides are straight from Nintendo, who are you to say they aren't cannonical?
Oni Dark Link– "I'm at the end of level two, but I'm not sure what to do, I don’t know anyway to win, this fricken boss has impenetrable skin. Tried the sword, arrow and candle, none of these weapons can handle, the boss that slowly chases me around. Oh wait I have this bomb I conveniently found - Neil" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
I take anything that isnt in game not full cannoical and I do know many guide books (I group them together because I never use them and dont know the differences) are full of mistakes and self made statements
EveryDayJoe45– "Every man dies; Not every man really lives"--William Wallace (Braveheart) TALK
Self made statements by the developers of the game... Again who are you to say what is and what is not cannonical. Different localizations of games have different names and explanations for things. Which one is cannonical? Beedle's Japanese name translates to Terry. Should we move the page to that?
Oni Dark Link– "There is no "absolute" in this mundanity. Occasionally you get lost facing unreasonable burdens. In order to overcome, you need a firm conviction, penetration, and the ability to take action. - Ikaruga, Chapter 3 Faith" TALK– {{{time}}}~ evaluationsreviewswalkthrough
I can determin what I believe is cannoical and what is not. Many people take things say in guides that dont make sense as true when in game evidence proves otherwise (the ones that spark to mind is that Jabu Jabu is Jabun and the wall masters in Ikana Castle but I am not going to argue them here) and thats fine bcause they believe that said things are cannoical. Anyway this page isnt about canonicity its about what bosses are alse characters and from what this little discussion seems to have done is included an imposing effect on the story as one of the characteristics of a character boss
EveryDayJoe45– "Government is not the solution to the problem. Government IS the problem."--Ronald Reagan TALK
Don't give me the "guides contradict games" argument because games themselves contradict other games. Do I personally think the guides are as connonical as the games? no and as a wiki we generally apply this to the wiki as a whole (not always as names are often taken from guides). But at the same time, that is just a general concept we use and I generally dislike how you feel you know what information from Nintendo is correct and try to use that in arguments. Truth is arguing with you is hopeless because the only thing that works is insulting you because otherwise you will continue rambling with your own brand of logic. Video games are not real. In truth they are ideas thought up by a group of people (in this case Nintendo). So there is not always going to be one side to a story. You need to stop arguing as if there is. Now I am done because if I hear any more of your ideas I'm going to explode (note this is not just from this argument but is a build up of all your crap I've heard from you in the past).
Wow... calm down people... I think I agree with Oni. I think. To be honest this is getting hard to follow. But I'm against deciding on everything individually. Oh, and Argorok is NOT a character.Hylianhero777 (talk) 21:58, May 28, 2010 (UTC)
EveryDayJoe45– "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."--Benjamin Franklin TALK
And you are NOT supposed to be commenting on 3 months old conversations that have already been decided and acted upon.
What? 3 month old? then why did it appear on my recently commented on list? You know the ones that are in blue?Hylianhero777 (talk) 20:30, May 29, 2010 (UTC)
